Difference between revisions of "Talk:The mortality due to PM 2.5 from buses"
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{{discussion | {{discussion | ||
|Dispute= ''Mortality'' and ''Mortality background'' ask for two different parameters in the formula. Proposal M = Mortality and Mb = Mortality background --[[User:Anne.knol|Anne.knol]] 16:56, 20 February 2008 (EET) | |Dispute= ''Mortality'' and ''Mortality background'' ask for two different parameters in the formula. Proposal M = Mortality and Mb = Mortality background --[[User:Anne.knol|Anne.knol]] 16:56, 20 February 2008 (EET) | ||
− | |Outcome= | + | |Outcome= Accepted. |
|Argumentation = | |Argumentation = | ||
{{defend|#(1): |The background mortality (Mb) is input into the formula, whereas the Mortality (M) is the output of the formula. These are therefore two different parameters |--[[User:Anne.knol|Anne.knol]] 17:06, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | {{defend|#(1): |The background mortality (Mb) is input into the formula, whereas the Mortality (M) is the output of the formula. These are therefore two different parameters |--[[User:Anne.knol|Anne.knol]] 17:06, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | ||
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{{attack|#(2): |There is no such thing as 'additional' or 'premature' deaths. Everybody dies once, so in the end (let's say, if a whole cohort has died), no one died ''additionally''. Instead, they have died earlier. (see next dispute) |--[[User:Anne.knol|Anne.knol]] 17:43, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | {{attack|#(2): |There is no such thing as 'additional' or 'premature' deaths. Everybody dies once, so in the end (let's say, if a whole cohort has died), no one died ''additionally''. Instead, they have died earlier. (see next dispute) |--[[User:Anne.knol|Anne.knol]] 17:43, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | ||
{{defend|#(3): |It is not correct to talk about ''premature'' deaths, this is clear.|--[[User:Jgrellier|Jgrellier]] 18:03, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | {{defend|#(3): |It is not correct to talk about ''premature'' deaths, this is clear.|--[[User:Jgrellier|Jgrellier]] 18:03, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | ||
+ | :{{attack|#(number): |Mathematically, that is true. However, it is a convention to calculate health impacts this way because it is easy. And "premature" is the word used for this, not "additional.|--[[User:Jouni|Jouni]] 18:16, 20 February 2008 (EET)}} | ||
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Revision as of 16:16, 20 February 2008
Contents
- 1 Mortality in the formula -- Anne.knol 16:56, 20 February 2008 (EET)
- 2 Scope should contain temporal information -- Ninais 17:20, 20 February 2008 (EET)
- 3 Premature deaths --Anne.knol 17:43, 20 February 2008 (EET)
- 4 Delete "Effect of bus type on PM2.5 emissions and exposure" -- Ninais 17:30, 20 February 2008 (EET)
- 5 Parent variables -- Ninais 17:53, 20 February 2008 (EET)
- 6 Problems with definitions -- A.gasparrini 18.03, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Mortality in the formula -- Anne.knol 16:56, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(1): : The background mortality (Mb) is input into the formula, whereas the Mortality (M) is the output of the formula. These are therefore two different parameters --Anne.knol 17:06, 20 February 2008 (EET) ←#(2): : Mortality and Mortality background are different parameters. We are in agreement with the defend 1 --Jgrellier 17:56, 20 February 2008 (EET) |
Scope should contain temporal information -- Ninais 17:20, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(1): : The scope is not clear because it refers to number of premature deaths - but not the timeframe (daily, monthly, yearly etc), or whether or not it is yearly average, or in a particular year (i.e. 1997 or 2020) --Ninais 17:20, 20 February 2008 (EET) ←#(2): : We agree. The number of deaths should be annual --Jgrellier 17:56, 20 February 2008 (EET) |
== Premature deaths should be considered as additional == Jgrellier 17:30, 20 February 2008 (EET)
How to read discussions
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(1): : Premature deaths due to PM2.5 from buses should be defined as addtional to background premature deaths --Jgrellier 17:29, 20 February 2008 (EET) ⇤#(2): : There is no such thing as 'additional' or 'premature' deaths. Everybody dies once, so in the end (let's say, if a whole cohort has died), no one died additionally. Instead, they have died earlier. (see next dispute) --Anne.knol 17:43, 20 February 2008 (EET) ←#(3): : It is not correct to talk about premature deaths, this is clear. --Jgrellier 18:03, 20 February 2008 (EET)
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Premature deaths --Anne.knol 17:43, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(1): : 'premature deaths' should better be described as 'deaths put forward', since the concept of premature deaths suggests that there is something like a 'mature death' which I don't not think is the good terminology --Anne.knol 17:43, 20 February 2008 (EET) --#(1): : It seems reasonable to provide an estimate of excess mortality (i.e. vs background mortality) due to PM2.5 without referring to a timeframe i.e. deaths put forward --Jgrellier 18:07, 20 February 2008 (EET) |
Delete "Effect of bus type on PM2.5 emissions and exposure" -- Ninais 17:30, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(1): : "Effect of bus type on PM2.5 emissions and exposure" refers to the scenarios and assessment, but is not a parent variable (and "bus type" is not within the scope of the variable because it is a scenario in the assessment). --Ninais 17:30, 20 February 2008 (EET) |
Parent variables -- Ninais 17:53, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(number): : Causality should refer to variables in the assessment:
--Ninais 17:53, 20 February 2008 (EET) ←#(2): : There is no sense in referring to data items under 'causality' unless they are variables. --Jgrellier 18:10, 20 February 2008 (EET) |
Problems with definitions -- A.gasparrini 18.03, 20 February 2008 (EET)
Statements:
Resolution: Resolution not yet found. (A stable resolution, when found, should be updated to the main page.) |
Argumentation:
←#(1): : the variable “mortality rate1” doesn’t refer to number of cases during time, as the word “rate” is normally used, but is the increment of risk for a specific increase in concentration. For these reason, “mortality rate” and “background mortality” relate to different things. I think “relative risk”, or “risk increment” is a more appropriate definition -- A.gasparrini 18.03, 20 February 2008 (EET) |